Interview with the President Of Southern Kurdistan
Massoud Barzani
Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani to "Al Hayat":
"We are not part of the Sunni-Shiite confrontation. We will not abandon Kirkuk
and we will not accept the agenda of Turkey. Iran doesn't interfere in
Kurdistan-Iraq, the interests of Syrians have changed."
Ghassan Charbel Al Hayat
Mar 24, 2007
Amman - The president of Iraqi Kurdistan
Province, the Kurdish leader Mr. Massoud Barzani considered that the American
withdrawal from Iraq in the current situation, "will cause a catastrophe and a
tragedy" or maybe "a fierce civil war". In an interview with "Al Hayat" he
stressed that the ongoing developments in the country after the fall of Saddam
Hussein "benefited Iraq as a whole, the Kurds seized the opportunity but our
Arab Sunni and Shiite brethren didn't exploit it and that's not our fault."
He admitted that Iraq witnesses a Sunni-Shiite confrontation but Kurds are not
part of the conflict. He warned against hindering the referendum on the future
of Kirkuk saying: "we won't accept the agenda of Turkey in the region." He
suggested a common administration for Kirkuk with Turkmen, Arab and Christians;
he added that no Kurd can abandon the region, criticizing Arab chauvinists and a
group of Turkmen connected to the Turkish Intelligence Army.
Barzani was asked if he still has the dream of a nation, he answered that it's
a legitimate right to the Kurd nation that is different from other nations. The
dream will come true. He stated that he doesn't consider the relationship with
Israel a crime but it violates the Iraqi constitution.
He insinuated apathy in the relation with Syria: "it seems that their interests
have changed." He also announced that the Iranian interference, "if it exists,
is in the other Iraqi regions that are not Kurdish."
Find below the full transcript of the interview
with the participation of our colleague Nabil Ghichan:
Al Hayat: Are you concerned about the situation
in Iraq?
Massoud Barzani: It's not a matter of concern but the situation is annoying and
worrying.
Al Hayat: What's the reason behind your
concerns? The failure to establish a nation, or the failure to reach an
agreement among Iraqis?
Barzani: What worries me most or what I consider dangerous because it threatens
the future of Iraq, is the sectarian conflict that has taken root dangerously.
Al Hayat: Does Iraq live a civil war? Can we
call the current situation a civil war between Sunnis and Shiites?
Barzani: I don't know, but the result is tragic, if you want to give it a title
it could be "a murder according to the identity card". I don't know exactly what
a civil war is, it's a tragic or a sectarian war.
Al Hayat: Are we witnessing a Sunni-Shiite
confrontation?
Barzani: Yes we are.
Al Hayat: Are Kurds part of this confrontation?
Barazani: No they aren't, in this confrontation we are part of the solution, we
are part of the problem and not part of the confrontation.
Al Hayat: Are you afraid of the American
withdrawal?
Barzani: At this stage, the withdrawal would cause a catastrophe.
Al Hayat: A catastrophe? Can you please clarify
this idea?
Barzani: The American presence prevents the situation from deteriorating or
from moving to a fierce civil war. Their presence is very important, it stops
the foreign threats.
Al Hayat: From which party?
Barzani: From any country that has aspirations, an agenda or the intention to
intervene militarily.
Al Hayat: So you consider that any American
withdrawal would cause a catastrophe?
Barzani: Yes, if there is no order in Iraq yet, if the Iraqi government, the
army and the security forces are not ready to control the situation, the
withdrawal would lead to a tragedy.
Al Hayat: Are you afraid of broad invasions in
case Americans withdraw? Will the Shiite try to control Baghdad for example?
Barazani: Everything is possible, Sunnis or Shiites may try to do that, there
will be then a real fierce civil war.
Al Hayat: If the Americans withdraw, what would
the Kurds do?
Barzani: We will try to prevent this from happening, if we fail, we won't be
part of it and we hope that it won't happen.
Four years of war
Al Hayat: Four years after the outbreak of war
in Iraq, was this war a mistake?
Barzani: The mistakes started after the war. I think that the decision of
toppling the regime wasn't wrong because getting rid of any dictatorial regime
in any country is good but the mistakes started with the issuance of UN Security
Council resolution 1483 and the arrival of Paul Bremer as a civil governor in
Iraq.
Al Hayat: There is a point of view that states
that the American Administration didn't plan to establish a governing council
but the failure of the Iraqi opposition to agree on a government, prompted it to
choose this?
Barzani: That isn't true, the resolution 1483 transformed these forces into
invading ones and according to it, they designated Paul Bremer as the supreme
governor of Iraq. Iraqi forces didn't have the opportunity to form a government
and we started talks with the forces to form an interim government, but we were
surprised by the resolution 1483 and by the cancellation of all what we had
agreed on.
Al Hayat: The mistakes started from here?
Barzani: Yes.
Al Hayat: Do you think that dismantling the
Iraqi Army is one of the mistakes?
Barzani: Not only dismantling the army; first,
the proscription to form an interim government and barring Iraqis from
exercising their rights. It wasn't necessary to dismantle the army but to
restructure it. Iraq doesn't need one million soldiers however, the culture of
the army wasn't convenient, it was meant to oppress Iraqi people. That's why, it
was necessary to restructure it and to re-educate it. It was wrong to dissolve
the army without determining the future of Iraqis, without giving them the
opportunity to live or without securing acquired rights and leaving them in the
street.
Al Hayat: Did some of them join the resistance?
Barzani: Everyone chose a way, dismantling the army was a mistake, we needed it
but with a lesser number and with a different culture and equipment.
Al Hayat: Was the decision of Debaathification
a mistake too?
Barzani: During the conference, that organized by the opposition and held in
London in 2002, before the collapse of the regime, I told to the participants
that toppling the regime is a matter of time, but the problem will start after
its collapse. We have a successful experience in Kurdistan, I hope that you will
profit from it. On the personal level, 37 persons of my family were killed, my
tribe lost 8200 persons and my nation lost 180 thousand persons, though, we
didn't reject peace even with Saddam Hussein, we issued a general amnesty to all
those who cooperated with the regime in the uprising of 1991. There are
dispositions of revenge; if we take it as a mean to settle accounts, we won't
achieve any result. This is the reason why I called upon them to agree on a
group of names related to the former regime, they are now wanted by justice. The
rest are citizens and any Baathist is not in the front but at the same time he
is treated as an Iraqi citizen without allowing the Baath party to remain. It
was important to determine the wanted names. The debaathification process was
implemented in a wrong way.
Al Hayat: What did you feel when they executed
Saddam Hussein? He was the cause of the catastrophe that befell your family,
your tribe and your nation.
Barzani: I considered Saddam Hussein dead when he was taken off the hole
without showing any resistance. It didn't surprise me when he was executed but I
wished he was not executed on a the day of Eid (Muslim celebration).
Al Hayat: Did you know the date of the
execution?
Barzani: No.
Al Hayat: Did the execution on the day of the
Eid affect Iraqis?
Barzani: Of course, it wasn't desirable, they should have taken into
consideration Muslims feelings and he shouldn't have been executed on this day.
I'm not against capital punishment but not the day of Eid.
Al Hayat: Did you feel that you want to take
revenge?
Barzani: I have never thought of revenge.
Al Hayat: Did you think of killing Saddam?
Barzani: When he was in power and we were fighting him, I sought to topple him
but not for a personal reason. I support the cause of a nation, the cause of
democracy in Iraq, the cause of Kurds human rights, I considered him against
these causes so I tried to topple him and his regime but I didn't think of
killing him personally.
Al Hayat: They announced the execution of Taha
Yassin Ramadan. What do you feel when you see that the history of Iraq is full
of executions and violence?
Barzani: The Iraqi history is full of executions; the person who comes to power
executes his predecessor. I would have wished another history for Iraq but that
is what happened.
Al Hayat: This is our history, this our
present, do you have hopes for a different Iraq?
Barazani: We are working to be different and we must not lose hope although the
process is not easy.
Kirkuk and the referendum
Al Hayat: We hear a lot about Kirkuk and the
compulsory Arabization and the enforced prohibition of compulsory Arabization.
Where is the truth?
Barzani: There is a misunderstanding of the subject. Kirkuk is an Iraqi region,
its identity is Kurdish, and all historical and geographical facts prove this
fact. Oil was first discovered in this region, that is why the successive
regimes tended to treat the region in a non humanitarian way; they stripped
Kurds from all their rights, 200 thousand Kurdish families were displaced, while
others were obliged to change their affiliation to an Arab nationalism. Arab
tribes were moved from South to the center and were established in Kirkuk, to no
avail. After the collapse of the regime, it was agreed on resolving problems
according to article 140 of the Constitution, the displaced would regain their
regions and Arabs would return to their regions with their indemnities, genuine
Arab and Kurds stay. After normalization they would conduct statistics and a
referendum.
There is a big confusion, we are seen as if we refuse the presence of Arabs and
as if we fire Turkmen. No, we are ready to establish a common administration in
Kirkuk after normalization.
Al Hayat: Common administration with whom?
Barzani: With Turkmen, Arab and Christians.
Al Hayat: When is the date of the referendum?
Barzani: The process must end in 2007.
Al Hayat: Did the Kirkuk issue trigger any
tension with the Sadr movement?
Barazani: A part of it, the government brought from south Arab tribes that
belong to Sadr movement as said, but according to our meetings with them, Sadr
movement agrees on the implementation of the article 140 of the Constitution.
Al Hayat: What does it happen if non Kurdish
forces choose to hinder the referendum?
Barzani: If we comply with the Constitution, the process ends quickly but there
are people who are against the referendum so everybody will take a strong
position against the party who opposes it.
Al Hayat: Who is controlling military in
Kirkuk?
Barzani: Americans.
Al Hayat: Is there any Peshmerga troops? ?
Barzani: They are not there, only American forces and the Iraqi army forces.
Al Hayat: In case there will be a civil war
after the American withdrawal, do you expect the Peshmergas to enter Kirkuk?
Barzani: Why does a civil war have to break out? We are not thinking of a civil
war, Arabs who are present are our brethren, Turkmen's too. Some predict a civil
war and the truth is that there will be no civil war. Those who claim that Kurds
will control Kirkuk are some marginal Turkmen and Arab groups. They don't
represent Arab or Turkmen majority. They are groups who lost their gains with
the collapse of the regime and they want to muddle but it will not stop the
process.
Al Hayat: Is your problem in Kirkuk with
Turkey?
Barzani: No, Kirkuk is an Iraqi region, Turkey has nothing to do with it and we
don't allow Turkey to intervene in the issue of Kirkuk at all, because it's a
foreign country and we won't accept its agenda in the region. It doesn't have
the right to intervene in the Iraqi issue, does it?
Al Hayat: Turkey says that the creation of
Kurdistan Province similar to a state threatens its security?
Barzani: This is a wrong perception, we don't threaten Turkey.
Al Hayat: Can Massoud Barazani abandon Kirkuk?
Barzani: Never
Al Hayat: Who is the Kurdish leader who can
abandon it?
Barzani: No Kurdish can abandon Kirkuk.
Al Hayat: It's like saying that there is no
Palestinian who will abandon Jerusalem?
Barzani: I'm not comparing Kirkuk to Jerusalem, there is a big difference but
no Kurdish abandons Kirkuk.
Al Hayat: You cannot sign an agreement that
states that Kirkuk is not part of Kurdistan whatever the temptations are, can
you?
Barzani: I tell you, confidently, that it's impossible to accept any other
solution.
Al Hayat: If you fail to annex the region to
Kurdistan, will you keep the issue postponed?
Barzani: We agreed constitutionally on how to resolve the problem. The problem
doesn't lie in Kirkuk only. There is a problem in the border between Anbar
Province and Baghdad, Tikrit, Najaf and Karbala and there is a problem between
Baghdad and Moussol. They all embody the changes the former regime have made for
political reasons to make a demographic change. People who want to blow the
situation out dangerously infringes the execution of article 140 of the
Constitution and people who are keen to the interest of Iraq and to definitely
resolve Kirkuk problem, should help implement this article.
A barrel of explosives
Al Hayat: Why do you describe the Kirkuk issue
as a barrel of explosives?
Barzani: That's not true, there are Arab chauvinists and a group of Turkmen
related to the Turkish Intelligence Army, they can't do anything because Arab do
not support them nor Turkmen do, everybody agrees on the constitutional solution
and interventions will cause problems in Kirkuk.
Al Hayat: The current Iraqi government complies
with the agreement?
Barzani: Yes, it legally complies with it.
Al Hayat: What about the big political parties?
Barzani: They comply with it too.
Al Hayat: Including Sadr movement?
Barzani: Sadr movement complies with the Constitution and we have the right to
take decisions against any party that doesn't comply with it.
Al Hayat: Does the invitation to form a
Province in the south and another one in the center relieve you as a Kurd?
Barzani: We support the federal regime in all regions and we leave the further
details to those who live in it.
Al Hayat: Your name figures on the list of
wanted people for international terrorism? Did you face an assassination
attempt? Have the party location been targeted?
Barzani: After the collapse of the regime on April, the location of Kurdish
Democratic Party witnessed two suicide attacks and there were damages. Other
operations occurred too but it has been a long time since we have faced an
attack. On the personal level, they didn't succeed in reaching me.
Al Hayat: Do you have strict security
procedures?
Barazani: Sure
Al Hayat: What do you say about the presence of
Al Quaeda organization in Kurdistan?
Barzani: It doesn't exist because Kurds absolutely refuse this ideology, the
operations that happened are caused by the infiltration from Moussol to Arbil
and there is no Quaeda or any allied organizations in the Province.
Al Hayat: Aren't there Kurdish extremists
allied to Al Quaeda?
Barzani: There are few numbers of them but they couldn't stay in Kurdistan.
Al Hayat: What's the problem of the Kurdish
Labor Party?
Barzani: The problem is with Turkey, it's a political cause, if it is not
solved politically the problem will remain.
Al Hayat: Does the party exist in your regions?
Barzani: They may have some locations on the border line but they are in remote
regions and in tortuous mountains.
Al Hayat: I noticed that you were born in
Mahabad Republic?
Barzani: To correct the information, Kurdistan Republic in Mahabad and it's a
wrong designation.
Al Hayat: How old are you?
Barzani: I was born in 1946.
Al Hayat: Do you think that you have achieved
part of your dreams in seeing Kurds enjoying security in Iraq and are respected
with regard to their identity and tradition?
Barzani: Yes, to a large extent.
Artificial borders
Al Hayat: Do you still maintain the dream of a
nation?
Barzani: I consider it a legitimate right because Kurds form a nation that is
different from other nations, it's not less important than them, so its
legitimate right is to have its independent nation. I don't consider it as a
dream.
Al Hayat: Did it come true then?
Barzani: It will come true but I don't know when.
Al Hayat: Maybe it would require decades.
Barzani: At the end, this nation of 40 million people may have an independent
nation.
Al Hayat: Is there a geographic connection?
Barzani: Sure, it's an artificial border and some villages are divided among
countries.
Al Hayat: Have you ever felt the need to
declare the independence of Kurdistan?
Barzani: I don't take risks, we will declare it or somebody else will declare
it in the appropriate moment, that will allow it to resist and survive and I
don't know when the time will come.
Al Hayat: Do you feel that you have achieved
what Mullah Mustapha Barazani couldn't achieve?
Barzani: We achieved the survival of what he had planned and we are his
disciples.
Kurdistan and Israel
Al Hayat: There are some news about Israeli
infiltration to Kurdistan, on the security and economic levels, and it's said
that Israel is working again on the minorities in the region?
Barzani: We are part of the Iraqi government. According to the Constitution we
don't have the right to build any relation with any country and if Israel opens
its embassy in Baghdad it will open its consulate in Arbil. Although I don't
consider the relation with it as a crime but it's a violation of the Iraqi
constitution. Israel has relations with all Arab countries.
Al Hayat: With all Arab countries?
Barzani: I think with all Arab countries, some are public and some are secret,
if these countries have relations with Israel why does it have to be seen as a
crime if others do that too? But I assure that there is no Israeli activity in
Kurdistan.
Al Hayat: Aren't there security relations or
armament? Do you need arms?
Barzani: We do have a lot of weaponry. We give arms to those who need them and
hopefully we won't need arms.
Al Hayat: What about the relations with Iran?
Barzani: Our relations are normal, there are economic relations. In Kurdistan
we don't have any problem with Iran.
Al Hayat: They are talking today about the
intervention of Iran in Kurdistan-Iraq?
Barzani: They aren't in Kurdistan Province; the intervention of Iran, if it
exists, is in other regions.
The role of Syria and Iran
Al Hayat: There are news about two foreign
roles in Iraq, the Syrian role and the Iranian role, is Kurdistan apart from
them?
Barzani: No regional country could implement its agenda in Kurdistan because
the population refuses this trend. In addition, there is no basis to implement
this agenda.
Al Hayat: How is your relationship with Syria?
Barzani: Our relationship with Syria is long-standing, but it's not as strong
as it was before.
Al Hayat: Why?
Barzani: I don't know, it seems that their interests have changed.
Al Hayat: It's said that Kurds in
Kurdistan-Iraq are the big winner of the collapse of Saddam because Arabs
drifted toward Sunni-Shiite rift. Do you feel that these events are in your
interest?
Barzani: Events were in the interest of Iraq but we seized the opportunity,
while our Sunni and Shiite Arab brethren didn't benefited form the chance, it is
not our fault. We still offer help but if they don't want to seize the
opportunity why do you have to punish Kurds?
Al Hayat: In Kurdistan there is the Iraqi
president and the president of the Province. How is the relation between you
two?
Barzani: The relation is strong and we have put our differences away.
Al Hayat: On the ground, the institutions are
divided.
Barzani: The unification process continues successfully.
Al Hayat: What about the situation in
Kurdistan?
Barzani: We have registered an improvement but we still have a lot of problems
such as fuel and electrical energy problems. The former regime didn't execute
any program that serves the region, that's why we are starting from scratch.
Al Hayat: Do investors tend to go to Kurdistan?
Barzani: That's right, the opportunity is very important.
Al Hayat: What about security there?
Barzani: We thank our security apparatus and our populations that are
cooperating together, security is perfect there.
Al Hayat: What about the immigration of
Christians from Baghdad to Kurdistan?
Barzani: That's true, it doesn't include Christians only but Arab and Muslims
and we have over 18 thousand Arab families that immigrated to Kurdistan Province
and they are most welcome.
Al Hayat: Are you concerned about the Christian
presence in Iraq since it is eroding?
Barzani: I don't advice them to immigrate outside the country.
Al Hayat: Are the rights of non Kurds
guaranteed?
Barzani: Our constitution is under consideration and it will guarantee the
rights of all citizens who live in the Province whatever their nationalism or
their religion is.
American withdrawal
Al Hayat: Did the American tell you about an
impendent withdrawal?
Barzani: They assured that they won't withdraw
until the situation in Iraq is settled and stabilized because their quick
withdrawal would cause a catastrophe.
Al Hayat: Who is responsible of the security in Kurdistan?
Barzani: The police.
Al Hayat: Are there unities from the army
stationed in the Province?
Barzani: Yes, there are forces from the Ministry of Defense and there are
Peshmergas.
Al Hayat: Are you relieved?
Barzani: I will feel relieved when the situation in Iraq becomes stable.
Al Hayat: Are you afraid of the arrival of big
numbers of immigrants to the Province in case American forces withdraw?
Barzani: Kurdistan is ready to open its hearts to our Arab Iraqi brethren.
Al Hayat: Is it possible that the majority
Sunni Kurds participate in the civil war next to Sunnis?
Barzani: I don't think so. In case a Sunni-Shiite war breaks up, we will not
take part in the conflict, we will rather try to stop it.
